Throwing this up before I forget (I can not wait for scheduled posts) but I won't be able to discuss until tonight :( Hopefully once Back to School season is over I'll be able to comment properly again.
Schooool's ooouut for the winter! Catching up and way late to the game. Not much to contribute after the great discussion that's already here, though... The discussion in the Go Weekly office was interesting, though. Somehow their excitement over this new wave reminded me of an idea that was put into my head from somewhere (the end of the manga? an essay I read?) that Hikaru and Akira themselves are merely stepping stones for the wave that will come after them. I really do love the open-ness of the dream sequence - how there are no indications as to whether that was *really* Sai or just a part of a dream.
It could have been the end -perhaps it was originally intended to be - but Im glad it continued for the extra arc afterwards and we got a bit more depth on some of the characters.
In this volume, and its been a long time since I read it, theres a lot of rounding up and revisiting. We see both Hikaru and Akira face opponents they had already played.
Then there's the sequence with the school go club and how the people in it have changed and handed it on. That also has a sense of both finality and continutity to it.
Did you notice that Hikaru asked to play Akari to relax before his game with Akira, just like Sai did before his game with the Meijin? It very neatly shows you how Hikaru is growing up and following in Sai's footsteps.
I do definately thing this was meant to be the end, but I suppose the manga was so popular they couldn't just give up riding the gravy train..... I ain't complaining. (except about missing Sai, boohoo!)
Yes, I noticed that too, I liked how the Sai vs Akari match was illustrated too - as though he was actually playing.
The continuation, I can see they've preempted it here by mentioning a international youth cup when they mention SuYong. I think, give the success of the story it was nice that they could indulge a bit in what followed - I find the pace changes and we see in more detail, theres more discussion and philosophy later, they wouldn't have been allowed to start a series like that, surely.
"Did you notice that Hikaru asked to play Akari to relax before his game with Akira, just like Sai did before his game with the Meijin? It very neatly shows you how Hikaru is growing up and following in Sai's footsteps." I hadn't thought of that - nice thinking!
Sai. I think spirits stay around, at least for a little while according to Shintoism. The story doesn't seem very close to this idea for me. I think Buddhism had come to Japan in Sai's time, at least to the ruling classes, and there was belief in an afterlife (Heaven is mentioned in 'The pillow book').
Uh no. I just hung out with a real Japanese lady for the weekend. We talked a lot of religion, both western and eastern. She laughed heartly when I explained monotheism.
The short version is: everything you think you know about eastern religion, chuck it now. It's all different, and a Japanese person will laugh at you when you open your mouth about it.
Yes, Buddhism had come to Japan before the Heian period.
Shintoism doesn't talk of "a while", things just 'are'. In Shintoism Sai became a kami after he died in the Heian period.
The Buddhism that is practiced in Japan is quite different from any other. The fact that they talk of Heaven (in the translation) doesn't mean they believe in it.
I find it left very open (what happens to Sai), and Ive certainly not noticed any reference to afterlife in Hikaru no Go itself. We also see a great deal of that bird after Sai disapears. What is he supposed to symbolise.
The Pillow Book is cheeky about many things, including religion, so its hard to tell what the people actually believed.
When Kubawara senses 'something' around Hikaru that is Sai. This also seem relevant.
I can't tell when the Pillow Book is really joking and when Ive missed the point because all my references are different. It has a lot of notes with it.
Buddhism had arrived into Japan in the Heian period as it was taken from China along with a lot of other things that they modelled their society on. I've read works from the period and they sometimes made pilgrimage to various Buddhist temples.
I know that one belief from Japanese Buddhism of that period is that if you have earthly desires or regrets then it's harder for you when you die and your soul will linger. I have no idea about any short of afterlife but the idea of your soul lingering because of the earthly desires is in a lot of literature from the Heian period.
You have to remember that they took Buddhism from the Chinese and then would have changed it to suit themselves. I'm not sure or anything but I wouldn't be surprised if the Buddhism practised in the Heian period isn't the same as Buddhism in Japan now in which case what were those original beliefs that Sai would have practiced?
On top of that, you must remember that the Japanese, then and now, are very different from westerners. And while we use some of the same words, like 'god', 'heaven' & 'soul', they mean something fundamentally different in the east then the west.
I'm very cautious of asking this kind of question. And I generally avoid religion as a topic on internet. Tonight is an exception:)
Another thing. There are bits of the English scantilation where Sai addresses himself to God or mentions God. In the same pages in the French translation the text uses the plural (dieux). Now, is this becuase the original Japanese word was ambiguous or has one of these versions been 'localised'? Otherwise why should 'French' Sai be polythsist and 'English' Sai monotheist.
Japan has 800 million 'gods'. Yes, just as my Japanese friend laughed at the notion of a single god, we westerners laugh at 800 million gods. Neither of our cultures allow us to to anything else.
After our discussion, my friend decided to refer to the Japanese gods as 'kami' and not translate the word in her lectures.
Interesting that in french it would be plural. Maybe the translator thinks of the Japanese gods as being part of a pantheon religion, like the Greek or the Norse gods.
Not only does this come down to language differences (Japanese to English vs Japanese to French) but also it comes down to individual translators. Did they completely understand what was meant? Is that how they felt the meaning was best implied? When I looked at the first 'official' manga translations of Naruto and Iruka-sensei is called 'Master Iruka' I wonder what the hell that translator was thinking! 'Master Iruka' indeed!!! To completely understand you'd have to go to the original texts, translations can only explain so much unless you want to slog through a lot of footnotes or the whole thing becomes unwieldy! ^_^
Even after the game that Hikaru plays with Isumi, I find 'Sai is in my Go' very very sad because its not Sai as a person, but just the idea of handing on teaching.
I was kind of blown away by the dream sequence at the end of vol 17 because its so beautiful and sad and at the same time theres Hikaru just being himself.
For me it symbolised both the handing on of knowledge and of arriving at independence. This said Hikaru is only 14/15 and that's pretty young, both to become independent and to experience something so extreme.
"Sai as a person" It fits with Shintoist believes; Sai was always a kami, a spirit, that infused Hikaru with a love for Go and helped him to come into his potential. Sai was never a person, he is a the spirit of an ancestor. That is why letting Sai play through Hikaru is not as wrong as it seems to a westerner. It would be the same if Hikaru had been inspired by a beautiful tree.
15 is young yes, but that is the moment you can start to become independent. At 20 he'll be officially an adult, so it's good he finds his path before then. And anyway, it's not like he's leaving home just yet!
I don't suppose she's going to make it. Nor is Fuku. Isumi has already passed, Kadowaki will pass too, and I suppose someone like Katagiri will be the third...
Honda? We got an extra scene about him earlier in the anime too: crying outside the institute after his elimination from the previous exam. Then a bus draws up and the driver tells him he still has next year.
As for Nase I think she's someone everyone wants to see pass. We had a bit of a discussion about her on the female characters thread, but I get this impression mostly because much fanfic depicts her as strong or already a pro. So, for a while I felt a bit guilty for writing one where she'd failed and left the Go world, not because I thought I'd misunderstood the characterisation (I can justify where I was coming from) but because this isn't what people want to read...I must just be a terrible angstmonger at heart
Nase: she (and Fuku too) pretty much won only half her games last year. Even if she got better this year, she's got the likes of Isumi, Honda and Kadowaki to contend with. She needs to hope for a lean year, then she may be in with a chance....
Btw, I find it unlikely that Kadowaki lost from Isumi. (Of cause the last game hadn't been played yet and that could have been Isumi vs Kadowaki) Kadowaki is really very strong, I think he could have beaten Hikaru if he had taken part in the pro-exam last year.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2010-09-01 08:18 pm (UTC)Grabs!
Date: 2010-09-01 08:25 pm (UTC)Volume 17
70-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/46088.html
71-1
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/46551.html
71-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/46766.html
71-3
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/47071.html
72-1
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/47306.html
72-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/47561.html
73-1
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/47854.html
73-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/48101.html
73-3
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/48153.html
74-1
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/48407.html
74-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/48703.html
74-3
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/48908.html
75-1
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/49189.html
75-2
http://onkoona.livejournal.com/49621.html
Re: Grabs!
Date: 2010-12-22 05:36 am (UTC)Catching up and way late to the game. Not much to contribute after the great discussion that's already here, though... The discussion in the Go Weekly office was interesting, though. Somehow their excitement over this new wave reminded me of an idea that was put into my head from somewhere (the end of the manga? an essay I read?) that Hikaru and Akira themselves are merely stepping stones for the wave that will come after them.
I really do love the open-ness of the dream sequence - how there are no indications as to whether that was *really* Sai or just a part of a dream.
The End
Date: 2010-09-01 08:29 pm (UTC)The five stages of grief:
5-Acceptance ..... check
Akira vs Hikaru:
Finally!
After 2 years and 4 months!
Sai:
If Shintoism doesn't do heaven, where did you go?
I miss you.
The End:
After this comes the epilogue. The very lengthy, much appreciated epilogue, but still, it's an epilogue.
Oh btw. it wasn't clear in the manga but Nase was in the pro prelim, and I feel sure she made it to the exam proper.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 08:57 pm (UTC)In this volume, and its been a long time since I read it, theres a lot of rounding up and revisiting. We see both Hikaru and Akira face opponents they had already played.
Then there's the sequence with the school go club and how the people in it have changed and handed it on. That also has a sense of both finality and continutity to it.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:05 pm (UTC)I do definately thing this was meant to be the end, but I suppose the manga was so popular they couldn't just give up riding the gravy train.....
I ain't complaining.
(except about missing Sai, boohoo!)
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:19 pm (UTC)The continuation, I can see they've preempted it here by mentioning a international youth cup when they mention SuYong. I think, give the success of the story it was nice that they could indulge a bit in what followed - I find the pace changes and we see in more detail, theres more discussion and philosophy later, they wouldn't have been allowed to start a series like that, surely.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-12-22 05:20 am (UTC)I hadn't thought of that - nice thinking!
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:02 pm (UTC)Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:18 pm (UTC)The short version is: everything you think you know about eastern religion, chuck it now. It's all different, and a Japanese person will laugh at you when you open your mouth about it.
Yes, Buddhism had come to Japan before the Heian period.
Shintoism doesn't talk of "a while", things just 'are'. In Shintoism Sai became a kami after he died in the Heian period.
The Buddhism that is practiced in Japan is quite different from any other.
The fact that they talk of Heaven (in the translation) doesn't mean they believe in it.
I just dunno.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:28 pm (UTC)The Pillow Book is cheeky about many things, including religion, so its hard to tell what the people actually believed.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:39 pm (UTC)I'll have to look into the pillow book soon....
Shintoism doesn't talk of afterlife. So that would fit. It does talk of dreaming about deceased people, so that also fits.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:55 pm (UTC)I can't tell when the Pillow Book is really joking and when Ive missed the point because all my references are different. It has a lot of notes with it.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:02 pm (UTC)copious notes with the Pillow Book: I'll bet!
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:59 pm (UTC)I know that one belief from Japanese Buddhism of that period is that if you have earthly desires or regrets then it's harder for you when you die and your soul will linger. I have no idea about any short of afterlife but the idea of your soul lingering because of the earthly desires is in a lot of literature from the Heian period.
You have to remember that they took Buddhism from the Chinese and then would have changed it to suit themselves. I'm not sure or anything but I wouldn't be surprised if the Buddhism practised in the Heian period isn't the same as Buddhism in Japan now in which case what were those original beliefs that Sai would have practiced?
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:06 pm (UTC)Really, my weekend was very inlightning!
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:31 pm (UTC)Another thing. There are bits of the English scantilation where Sai addresses himself to God or mentions God. In the same pages in the French translation the text uses the plural (dieux). Now, is this becuase the original Japanese word was ambiguous or has one of these versions been 'localised'? Otherwise why should 'French' Sai be polythsist and 'English' Sai monotheist.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:40 pm (UTC)Yes, just as my Japanese friend laughed at the notion of a single god, we westerners laugh at 800 million gods.
Neither of our cultures allow us to to anything else.
After our discussion, my friend decided to refer to the Japanese gods as 'kami' and not translate the word in her lectures.
Interesting that in french it would be plural. Maybe the translator thinks of the Japanese gods as being part of a pantheon religion, like the Greek or the Norse gods.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-02 02:22 am (UTC)Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:12 pm (UTC)I was kind of blown away by the dream sequence at the end of vol 17 because its so beautiful and sad and at the same time theres Hikaru just being himself.
For me it symbolised both the handing on of knowledge and of arriving at independence. This said Hikaru is only 14/15 and that's pretty young, both to become independent and to experience something so extreme.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:33 pm (UTC)It fits with Shintoist believes; Sai was always a kami, a spirit, that infused Hikaru with a love for Go and helped him to come into his potential. Sai was never a person, he is a the spirit of an ancestor. That is why letting Sai play through Hikaru is not as wrong as it seems to a westerner. It would be the same if Hikaru had been inspired by a beautiful tree.
15 is young yes, but that is the moment you can start to become independent. At 20 he'll be officially an adult, so it's good he finds his path before then. And anyway, it's not like he's leaving home just yet!
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:09 pm (UTC)Hikaru seems fairly robust - he's had to be - but I can't help thinking about people I know of this age, or knew at this age and its not always easy.
If I was more knowledgeable about different religions I'd try to write a Narnia-Spirited Away crossover - I'd love to see that done properly.
Relating monotheism cannot have been simple.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:51 pm (UTC)In the manga we only see Fuku.
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 09:59 pm (UTC)I don't suppose she's going to make it. Nor is Fuku.
Isumi has already passed, Kadowaki will pass too, and I suppose someone like Katagiri will be the third...
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:21 pm (UTC)We got an extra scene about him earlier in the anime too: crying outside the institute after his elimination from the previous exam. Then a bus draws up and the driver tells him he still has next year.
As for Nase I think she's someone everyone wants to see pass. We had a bit of a discussion about her on the female characters thread, but I get this impression mostly because much fanfic depicts her as strong or already a pro. So, for a while I felt a bit guilty for writing one where she'd failed and left the Go world, not because I thought I'd misunderstood the characterisation (I can justify where I was coming from) but because this isn't what people want to read...I must just be a terrible angstmonger at heart
Re: The End
Date: 2010-09-01 10:47 pm (UTC)Nase: she (and Fuku too) pretty much won only half her games last year. Even if she got better this year, she's got the likes of Isumi, Honda and Kadowaki to contend with. She needs to hope for a lean year, then she may be in with a chance....
Btw, I find it unlikely that Kadowaki lost from Isumi. (Of cause the last game hadn't been played yet and that could have been Isumi vs Kadowaki)
Kadowaki is really very strong, I think he could have beaten Hikaru if he had taken part in the pro-exam last year.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-01 09:30 pm (UTC)