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What we talk about when we talk about
So. I may have mentioned before - my roommate is a professional (in that she works for a fairly prominent Republican politician) Republican (short version - I needed a roommate, she was the only one off of craigslist who was not-crazy and didn't back out at the last minute, we get along very well at a superficial level) and, as part of her job, she watches the news every morning. Fox News. Y'all, there is no better way to start your day then listening to Joe Lieberman talking about why we shouldn't investigate the 'enhanced interrogation' memos, that Obama's halted the practices in the memos anyway, that we as a country should "move on." I'll see if I can find a clip or a transcript later, but right now, aaaaarg.
So! Let's talk about torture. I mean, I have no idea *how*, but it's worth a try.
First, some links:
* Terry Karney (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
pecunium), a former military interrogator, reads through all 80 pages of the memos and talks about them here and here. In which we learn (among other things) that driving a subject into a state where they cannot tell hallucination from reality (via sleep deprivation, say) is 'surprisingly' ineffectual in getting reliable information.
* In Adopting Harsh Tactics, No Look at Past Use, from the New York Times, talks about the history of these techniques (including the bit where "waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.") and the officials who failed to learn anything about said history (or even read the entirety of their briefings).
* Detainee Project: A collection of photos and stories from (a very few) of the individuals detained by the American government. divorced with seven children, she is an accountant in baghdad. "they put me in a room and they put my son in a cage in front of me. the soldier said to her, 'confess that you know terrorists or i will send you to a place where they will rape you, they will do things to you that you could never imagine."
* Tangential, Ta-Nehisi Coates on The Intellectual Dishonesty Of "Looking Forward": The only way you can embrace the "Looking Forward" line of logic, or the "some things in life need to be mysterious" line of logic, is to accept that the law works one way for people who've accrued political power, and another way for those who don't.
Okay, y'all. This is *horrible.* Horrible. And it's not *new,* we did not just learn this - the camps, the prisons, have been there for *years.* Activists, soldiers, reporters have been telling us about this for *years.* Over the last six+ years we have effectively stripped the basic human dignity from both ourselves (by enabling) and the people we tortured (by *torture*).
Some *coughfoxnewscough* have made much of Obama's 'popularity tour' abroad - that he's gladhanding, that he's trying to get everyone to like him, that he's kissing ass. And you know what? He damn well better be. It's going to take so much to bring ourselves up to where we want to be (where we tell ourselves we are/have been) - a country that does the right thing, makes the right choices, lives the noble life - that apologizing is just the first drop in the bucket. The fact that we're *debating* this torture issue? Telling ourselves to forget/forgive/look forward? When what we should be doing is apologizing, persecuting those who have done wrong and trying to bring justice to those to whom wrong was done? Yeah. We have a *long* way to go.
/incoherence
Edit: This is why I shouldn't write anything after 10pm. Take two:
We, the United States, as a nation, have this self image - the hero, the upstanding, the righteous, beloved by god and the best damn country on Earth. And I love my country, I do*, but this is not and never has been true. We've done horrible things** (to ourselves and others), told ourselves (and the world) a lot of lies, and built up a complex structure of privilege and prejudice around ourselves (and pretend it's not there). It scares (sickens/horrifies) me, that we've gotten so far off track that we're debating (after *using*) torture, publicly, with the people we tortured, and their families, and their communities, and the whole damn world looking on. As we prove, no, we *aren't* better then this.
And I hope (naively) like hell that we wake up and use this as an opportunity to take a good, hard look at ourselves (as uncomfortable and painful as it will be). Because not doing so won't be 'moving forward,' it'll be another ten steps backwards, with our head in the sand and our bare, morally repugnant ass high in the air for everyone to see.
I'm still trying to figure out what I can do, on a personal level - it's awfully easy to make a post no one will see and sit back, satisfied. I don't want that, easy as it would be, but talking about what the hell I can do instead is another post entirely.
*And there are and have always been people who fight to make the country better, who speak and act and live and die in their attempts to make us better. Who are entirely responsible for what good we have, what's still worth loving.
**Yes, I can provide a list. It's long. Not as bad as some other countries, yes, I *know,* but that is not the point.
So! Let's talk about torture. I mean, I have no idea *how*, but it's worth a try.
First, some links:
* Terry Karney (
pecunium), a former military interrogator, reads through all 80 pages of the memos and talks about them here and here. In which we learn (among other things) that driving a subject into a state where they cannot tell hallucination from reality (via sleep deprivation, say) is 'surprisingly' ineffectual in getting reliable information.* In Adopting Harsh Tactics, No Look at Past Use, from the New York Times, talks about the history of these techniques (including the bit where "waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.") and the officials who failed to learn anything about said history (or even read the entirety of their briefings).
* Detainee Project: A collection of photos and stories from (a very few) of the individuals detained by the American government. divorced with seven children, she is an accountant in baghdad. "they put me in a room and they put my son in a cage in front of me. the soldier said to her, 'confess that you know terrorists or i will send you to a place where they will rape you, they will do things to you that you could never imagine."
* Tangential, Ta-Nehisi Coates on The Intellectual Dishonesty Of "Looking Forward": The only way you can embrace the "Looking Forward" line of logic, or the "some things in life need to be mysterious" line of logic, is to accept that the law works one way for people who've accrued political power, and another way for those who don't.
Okay, y'all. This is *horrible.* Horrible. And it's not *new,* we did not just learn this - the camps, the prisons, have been there for *years.* Activists, soldiers, reporters have been telling us about this for *years.* Over the last six+ years we have effectively stripped the basic human dignity from both ourselves (by enabling) and the people we tortured (by *torture*).
Some *coughfoxnewscough* have made much of Obama's 'popularity tour' abroad - that he's gladhanding, that he's trying to get everyone to like him, that he's kissing ass. And you know what? He damn well better be. It's going to take so much to bring ourselves up to where we want to be (where we tell ourselves we are/have been) - a country that does the right thing, makes the right choices, lives the noble life - that apologizing is just the first drop in the bucket. The fact that we're *debating* this torture issue? Telling ourselves to forget/forgive/look forward? When what we should be doing is apologizing, persecuting those who have done wrong and trying to bring justice to those to whom wrong was done? Yeah. We have a *long* way to go.
/incoherence
Edit: This is why I shouldn't write anything after 10pm. Take two:
We, the United States, as a nation, have this self image - the hero, the upstanding, the righteous, beloved by god and the best damn country on Earth. And I love my country, I do*, but this is not and never has been true. We've done horrible things** (to ourselves and others), told ourselves (and the world) a lot of lies, and built up a complex structure of privilege and prejudice around ourselves (and pretend it's not there). It scares (sickens/horrifies) me, that we've gotten so far off track that we're debating (after *using*) torture, publicly, with the people we tortured, and their families, and their communities, and the whole damn world looking on. As we prove, no, we *aren't* better then this.
And I hope (naively) like hell that we wake up and use this as an opportunity to take a good, hard look at ourselves (as uncomfortable and painful as it will be). Because not doing so won't be 'moving forward,' it'll be another ten steps backwards, with our head in the sand and our bare, morally repugnant ass high in the air for everyone to see.
I'm still trying to figure out what I can do, on a personal level - it's awfully easy to make a post no one will see and sit back, satisfied. I don't want that, easy as it would be, but talking about what the hell I can do instead is another post entirely.
*And there are and have always been people who fight to make the country better, who speak and act and live and die in their attempts to make us better. Who are entirely responsible for what good we have, what's still worth loving.
**Yes, I can provide a list. It's long. Not as bad as some other countries, yes, I *know,* but that is not the point.